Carbon Dosing thoughts?

Discussion in 'Chemistry' started by H-Powered1981, May 8, 2014.

  1. H-Powered1981

    H-Powered1981 RRMAS Supporter

    Hello Fellow Reefers,
    Wanted to get you guys thoughts on carbon dosing (vinegar/vodka/sugar). Has anyone tried it? Specs posted below:

    120 gallon with 40 gal breeder sump - up and running for about year and half. ASM G3 skimmer
    pH 8.1
    Sal 1.026
    Ammonia 0
    Nitrite 0
    Nitrate OFF the charts....API says 160ppm....
    phosphate .25ppm

    I recently bought new LED lights and want to get in to SPS/LPS and would like to get the last two down. I know my problem which is heavy bioload and heavy handed feeding.... I've been reading online all these articles about carbon dosing and thought it was interesting. Anyone have experience with it or things I should looking out for?? I'm open to any suggestions. I also run 150g phosban in reactor too with UV sterilizer.

    Thanks!
     
  2. Kim

    Kim Secretary Staff Member

    HIya,

    Best advice....chemipure Elite and WATER CHANGES!!! No faith in the vinegar/vodka/sugar dosing stuff.

    Kim/Benton, AR
     
  3. Uperepik

    Uperepik Administrator

    Wow that's some seriously high nitrates. Carbon dosing works but it's a very tricky method. Things can go wrong quick. How often and how much do you water change?
     
  4. H-Powered1981

    H-Powered1981 RRMAS Supporter

    Hi Kim,
    I've heard about chemipure but isn't it only for nanos? How does it compare to Purigen? I've got a 100mL in my sump now. It seems to be keeping the water clear, but not budging the nitrates.

    Hi Shawn,
    I'm doing bi weekly 15 gallon water changes, replacing 150g of GFO and filter socks every 4 weeks.
     
  5. xystic

    xystic Wrasse

    I personally have not tried it but I do bio pellets, a carbon source, which is pretty much the same as dosing your above mentioned carbon sources. I've read enough scientific literature and it does work fairly well. There are risks involved though, which is mainly over dosing any of the three you listed. Also you may have to remove your phosphate reactor depending on your results. The carbon from the three sources you listed feeds the new strain of bacteria that you are trying to grow which draws up both nitrate and phosphates at the same time. The reason why you may need to remove the phosphate reactor is because the phosphates may be too low for bacteria populations to continue building up, therefore reducing the effectiveness of the dosing. You have the nitrates for the carbon bacteria but you start lacking the phosphates it needs to continue dividing so that there are more of them to absorb nitrates.

    In order for carbon dosing to also work properly, you need to also have an over sized skimmer. You have to consistently remove the bacteria thru the skimmer, a undersized skimmer especially for heavy bioload systems will not be effective enough at removing the bacteria. These bacteria are usually free floating and not like your nitrifying bacteria that stick to surface areas. People will notice that even with out the skimmer, nitrates and phosphates drop but the problem occurs when there is possibly a huge die off of those bacteria, releasing all that phosphate and nitrate they had been absorbing right back in to the system. In theory it is very similar to chaeto nutrient export systems, where you grow, cut and throw away, but these bacteria are far more consistent in removing nitrate and phosphates to very low levels as chaeto alone will not in systems that have super bioloads.
     
  6. H-Powered1981

    H-Powered1981 RRMAS Supporter

    Ohhh makes sense. I wasn't sure about the relationship between nitrate and phosphate levels and how it plays a part in the whole process working properly. Maybe I should take the GFO out of my reactor and put in bio pellets? I have a ASM G3 skimmer that's rated for 250 gal so I think I'm good there. If using bio pellets should I also turn off the uv sterilizer? Would that be hindering bacteria growth?
     
  7. xystic

    xystic Wrasse

    Yes, you can run biopellets if you'd like. The Skimmer appears to be sufficient enough. Its usually recommended that you have the output of the reactor close to the skimmer if not hooked up to it.

    Scientific literature has tested the UV sterilizer specifically in carbon dosing but have found no significant impact on the bacteria but at the same time they say they can't explain why either. However, we do know it does fry some bacteria, UV sterilizers are commonly used to take out bacterial blooms =d. So its really up to you on that call. If you have pests in your aquarium, probably good idea to keep it on, if not, no need to risk frying your bacteria, especially when you need to grow them.

    Keep in mind, biopellets and dosing take awhile to work. Its like nitrifying bacteria, you have to get them to certain numbers before they are effective. Luckily, they don't take as long but it will still be 3-6 weeks depending on how well you can grow them before you start seeing enough bacteria. Since you are 120 ppm+ it may be awhile.

    Also if you want to find out exactly how many PPM of nitrates you have if its over the scale. Just dilute your sample. Do a 50/50 dilution and then just remember to multiply that by 2 to get your exact concentration.
     
  8. H-Powered1981

    H-Powered1981 RRMAS Supporter

    Anywhere local sell biopellets that will work in a phosban reactor? If so, how much flow should I be looking for? Slight movement like GFO or tumbling?
     
  9. xystic

    xystic Wrasse

    I usually buy my biopellets online so I'm not sure if the LFS carry any. The biopellets I see used with the phosban reactor, two little fishies, is the NPX bioplastics. There are some higher brand name ones out there but most of the complaints about biopellets is that they stick to each other and don't tumble as well.

    As for flow, you want to see the pellets tumble so just remember not to fill it up too much. If you youtube some videos, you'll see how much tumbling it as to do to be efficient.
     
  10. Uperepik

    Uperepik Administrator

    Good information Xystic. H-powered, just curious how much live rock do you have. And I think biopellets would be a good thing to try. Your best bet may be to order them online.
     
  11. H-Powered1981

    H-Powered1981 RRMAS Supporter

    Maybe 100 something? Not really sure. I've attached two pics one of DT and one of the sump photo 1.jpg
     
  12. H-Powered1981

    H-Powered1981 RRMAS Supporter

    oops here is the sump pic photo 2.jpg
     
  13. H-Powered1981

    H-Powered1981 RRMAS Supporter

    I've got 400mL of NPX bioplastics on order. Fingers crossed. i'll post updates on the progress of it. It says to start with 1/2 recommended dose, but since my nitrates are so high should I go with the full dose (200mL per 50 gal)?
     
  14. xystic

    xystic Wrasse

    Even though you have a lot of nitrates, you don't want to overdrop the nitrates too quickly in the long run. Start with half and add more as needed after several weeks. Do not expect immediate results. Remember that you are growing bacteria and so if you start with just 1 bacteria, its going to be awhile before you have enough to tackle 120+ ppm which is VERY high. lol.
     
  15. whippetguy

    whippetguy Super Moderator

    Xystic has given you some very good advice. I use biopellet reactors on both of my tanks.
     

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  16. H-Powered1981

    H-Powered1981 RRMAS Supporter

    So would it be best to run the return line for the reactor into the same chamber the skimmer is in? My overflow lines T off (one to the chamber with the skimmer, the other to another chamber with live rock and macro growing. Return section is in the center of the sump). Or does it even matter? John how is yours set up on your tanks?

    Thanks for all the great feedback!
     
  17. alpineroush

    alpineroush RRMAS Supporter

  18. H-Powered1981

    H-Powered1981 RRMAS Supporter

    50mL of NPX bioplastics tumbling away. Had to slightly mod the TLF 150 to work with my MJ1200 so I was getting the tumbling I needed. Wasn't sure if I should start a new thread or what section to put it under, but wanted to document my results. As of this am nitrates still 160, phosphates .25. Everything else is stable. Stay tuned.
     
  19. H-Powered1981

    H-Powered1981 RRMAS Supporter

    Bioplastics must be kicking in. Skimmer is working overtime. Gah this skimmate is putrid. Nitrates haven't budged (or been reduced to under 160 since that's as high as the API test reads)..... Slight bump up in phosphates but I believe that's because I stopped running GFO. How long should I wait before adding more Bioplastics? My original plan was to wait until I see some slight reduction and slowly add more pellets. My concern now is that since my nitrates are so high, will 50mL be enough to even see a difference? Am I thinking about this correctly?
     
  20. whippetguy

    whippetguy Super Moderator

    I waited 4-6 weeks before I got good results. I wouldn't add more until then. Just keep up with water changes.
     

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