There seems to be a outbreak of Brooklynella going around. I have read some post on some other sites of people having it. I just went through one. Lost a pwdr brn, a flame back pigmy angel and 1 chalkbass. It is a very fast acting and very deadly parisite. The reason I'm posting is to alert people of it and there are some articles that are misleading out there. I had my pwdr brn in a QT because he would not fill out in the belly, ate like a pig but stayed pinched looking in the belly and he had very minor signs of ich, so I was treating him with Maracyn2 and some coppersafe, he had clearedup and his belly was full and fat. I bought a FB pigmy angel and another chalkbass and added them to the QT, which is not a good move to begin with. Anyway a couple days past and went to bed and woke up and the pwdr brn looked like a snake shedding his skin. His mucuse layer was peeling off and his skin was all blotchy, he died a matter of hours later, and I kid you not he looked perfect the night before. I at first thought it was velvet desease and couldn't figure out how it had killed anything with copper in the tank. The very next day the pigmy died, same looks. I finally figured out it was Brooklynella, as its is very similiar to Oodinium [clown fish desease, velvet desease] in appearance, and Oodinium is more common. My first clue that it was not O should have been how fast it acted, but it had been 15-20 yrs since I had run into this stuff and it never crossed my mine. It is very hard to find articles about it compared to ich or the other numerous diseases out there as it is not very common. Anyway I found some Formulyn here in Searcy at the LFS and did three dips on the chalkbass and they are fine. NSA also has a product called Para Guard, which is supposed to be easier to use and You can treat the whole tank or do dips. I have never had any problems usinf formalin the few times I've had this stuff and you don't have to dose the whole QT tank doing dips. There are some articles saying to do everything from low salin treatments to freshwater dips, to copper and saying all over the place about its life cycle. CAUTION DONOT do low salin dips with Formalin, it well kill the fish. Brooklynella is a free swimming cyst but has to find a host in a matter of MINUTES, that is usally why until it gets really bad some fish seem uneffected by it. It starts in the gill area because it eats detritus and algae coming in through the mouth of the fish and excreted through the gills and then spreads out from there. As it multiplys it usally just moves over on the fish it is on, but some do let go and find other fish, BUT it has to be QUICK. It DOES NOTeffect inverts or corals, it has to be inbedded in a fishes skin in a very short time. There are a FEW articles saying that it has a free swimming stage of 4 weeks and they are WRONG. I am not a biologist but have had this 3 or 4 time in the last 30 yrs. All the people who have degrees and have written articles on this from way back to present agree and state that it has NO free swimming life cycle. I also have treated for it the way most reccomend and have always been successful. That is with a Formalin dip in a bucket of the QT water with a tiny airpump blowing air just through a line into the bucket as formalin uses up oxygen fast. You need to use the 37% stuff at 1 ml per gallon of QT water in the bucket. I usally find that 1 gal is plenty, but it would greatly depend on the size and number of fish, but since everyone should be QTing their new fish first, it shouldn't be a large quanity, just put it in a small enoughn dia bucket so there is some depth to the water. Leave the fish or fishes in there for 45 mins. and don't let the bucket get cold and loose alot of heat, you can set it in a sink surrounded by a little warm water if you think needed. You then give him a quick dip in container without formalin to rinse and return to the QT. Back to these articles saying to leave your tank void of fish for 4 weeks, they are wrong as far as I am concerned as most article say there is no free swimming life cycle and I have never left my QT bare of fish for 4 weeks and have never gotten it back. The free swimming life cycle is VERY short and that is why you do 3 to 5 dips every other day. I have never had a fish get it back putting it back in the tank right away after the 3 to 5 dips. The chalkbass are all clear and I have a CB butterfly in the QT now a week later and he is doing just fine. He well probably be there for 2 or 3 monthas until I get him to eating clams. Anyway, be on the ALERT for it, seems to be going around.
Sorry to here about your fish. this is a very good post on a diease that isn't that common. thanks for the warning john
Which LFS did you purchase the angel and chalk bass from recently? People/club members should know that there is a good chance that their purchase will have this disease, and care should be exercised after the purchase. John have you called the store to let them know? They may be able to treat their tanks also. I am sure the store does not want someone to buy a fish, and have that new fish die or wipe out the customers entire tank of fish. Another good push for UV sterilizer and ozone. It can kill/sterilize the floating cysts sooner than their life cylce would be.
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-03/rhf/index.php http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-04/rhf/index.php http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-05/rhf/index.php Ralph The store has already fixed the problem and I don't think they knew they had one until my issues. I bought the CB butterfly from them and he is clean and eating just fine in the QT along with the chalkbass. The moral of this story is different to me and that is, it shows how IMPORTANT a QT is. This stuff moves within hours and if it had been in my DT, I would have had to brake corals and tear the reef apart to catch them all. So as far as I'm concerned the important point here is TO QT. I have a 80 watt UV, 2 40's inline Lifegaurd setup out in the storage shed. If you know anyone that wants it give me a call. I have always used it even back in the early 80's and never found that it did squat. I have read several articles in the last 3-4 yrs written by people who treat public water systems and some other co's who treat with UV for one reason or the other and they all say that the little amount of watts and the contact time used in our systems do nothing except kill maybe some bacterias both good and bad. I don't have a limk but I can remember one guy who does it at a water treatment plant and to kill ICH it would require some outragous contact time and wayyyy more watts then what we use. Anyway above is 3 articles written in succession on Ozone by Randy Holmes Farley and he references several other authors at the end of each one. Read all the 3 articles and you well see that other then maybe helping clear the water somewhat, there don't seem to be much benefit to it, because as with UV it requires alot longer contact time and wayyy more ozone levels then we use. I haven't had any issues not using UV since moving down and not setting it up. Alot of experts think that it weakins the immune system also on the animals. I have never used Ozone as I would have to have it inside my house instead of the garage and for the perceved benefits I'll pass as the positive doesn't outway the possisble side effects to me and my family. Keeping up with your husbandry and QTING is the most important thing I think. But I don't begrudge your way of doing things as you have a very nice reef.
I can only speak from experience that since I have added ozone, my fish problems are all gone. I used to fight ich off and on forever it seemed. I agree it does not do much for Brooklyenella or marine velvet. I have read most of those articles in the past, and Randy Homles Farley is one of the best in the hobby. I just know that it has helped me through the years. I never dose too much ozone, as I don't care to smell it. They make ozone machines for the homes now as a air purifier, cannot be all that bad. I should have a quarantine tank, but don't (I know shame on me), as I have been bitten severely in the past with a powder blue that appeared healthy by all normal things we look for. Just about wiped out my tank years ago. Lost several hundreds of dollars in fish. While these things happen, and they suck when they do, it is utimatley our responsibility not the LFS to quarantine new fish. They simply get them in and acclimate them to their tanks. Get them in and sell them as soon as possible. Thats the best way to make money. Otherwise they would say, we just got these in and we have a policy that quarantines all new fish prior to selling them. Too costly and will not happen. I would rather see a LFS do this with a small deposit to hold him in your name through out the quarantine time. If the fish dies during that time you get your deposit back. If it makes it through the process, then you pay your balance and go on. Most stores such as NSA I believe already keep copper in their tanks to help prevent disease, but is also not good for the fish long term. I remember hearing Marti at NSA tell a customer they had copper in their fish tanks, and advised him to not get any water into his reef tank. Not saying its bad practice, just seems to be the industry norm. I would rather see stores run some type of Maracyn or another anti-biotic for negative and positive gram diseases rather than copper. Copper is cheaper though.
I've had the dang flu bug for a couple days and was down, feel much better now. Ralph I was reading an article just the other day on ac units with ozone and there seems to be some controversy over it. Doesn't seem to be a conculsion oneway or the other yet. Copper does nothing for brooklynella, and yes NSA coppers there tanks except for the reef ones of course and some fish don't do good in it, hypo would be a better option for them. The blue millie seems to have quit receeding, hope it well color back up and grow over the receeded areas.
Yes, we do medicate our aquaria. We make no secret about it. Many of our fish come in from the wild and they don't have the ability to tell us if they are carrying parasites. We must assume that they might be carrying something. There are a few things to be aware of when considering how we should best care for our fish and serve our customers, most of whom do not quarantine their fish: 1. Most people have a salinity of 1.023 or higher, so while having a lower salinity works well for ridding fish of external parasites, we have found over the years that the majority of people do not take the proper amount of time to acclimate fish. That results in a LOT of fish death if we run, say 1.018 salinity. Hyposalinity also can take a while to work. It is not as quick as a freshwater bath and different parasites have different levels of susceptibility to low salinity. 2. We have switched from copper to another medication which is safer for the fish and more effective. DO NOT PUT IT IN YOUR REEF TANK EITHER! We will periodically use copper if we think we might show signs of something that is particularly sensitive to copper. Copper kills many parasites rapidly, so that is sometimes the best option. 3. Fish do not spend very much time here, so their exposure to medication is usually about the period of time that one would medicate a fish in quarantine. 4. We watch our fish carefully. If a fish were to ever show signs of sensitivity to a medication, we would move it. 5. Yes, we do run UV sterilizers, but that doesn't help the fish that already have a parasite. If you have questions about how we care for our fish, please feel free to ask us while you are in the store.
1. Most people have a salinity of 1.023 or higher, so while having a lower salinity works well for ridding fish of external parasites, we have found over the years that the majority of people do not take the proper amount of time to acclimate fish. That results in a LOT of fish death if we run, say 1.018 salinity. Hyposalinity also can take a while to work. It is not as quick as a freshwater bath and different parasites have different levels of susceptibility to low salinity. If you are going to run copper why run the salinity so low knowing most aquarists run their tanks up higher? It takes along time to properly acclimate fish to our systems. In reality it some cases a few days to get them adjusted to the higher salinity. Most aquarist are not set up for this or patient enough. LFS store should use the KISS system so their product they sale does not die. If they knowingly know (noted above) people run their slainity higher,and sell you a fish in lower salinity it is our fault for not acclimating them right. I am sorry I disagree and think that is BS. If stores were responsible they would run their salinity higher, knowing they are going to a home or tank with higher salinity. Also you noted hyposalinity takes awhile to work, and if I read between the lines is not very effective compared to medicine. If it was ideal the oceans would be at lower salinity levels. If fish are notinyour tanks long enough for this to be effective then why do it? Money is the answer. I personally would like to see trans shippers and LFS run their salinity up higher around the normal range (too support corals). I also think it hurts a fish more trying to acclimate them upward in the salinity scale rather than downward. I have no scientific data on that just personal experience. The bottom line is it more cost effective for shippers and LFS to run their salinity lower because they use less salt and save money that way. Most LFS would not dose copper, but in order to sell a fish it cannot show signs of ich, or people would not buy the fish. So they must use it to keep the fish looking healthy on the outside. I would rather see LFS run higher salinity and even Maracyn and or copper in their tanks. That way you are not just treating the outside of the fish, but also the inside. Drugs like Maracyn or Maracyn 2 are expensive and also cut into the profit zone. Fish go through a lot once captured, shipped and then shipped in essence again to our tanks. I think shippers and stores ought to do whatever it takes to ensure the health and surviveability of the fish. Going up and down in salinity in a matter of days or a couple of weeks has to be very hard on the fish. If you only medicate your fish because you have to assume they are carrying something, then why not treat incoming rock and corals with Coral-X or some pest erradication mix? We should also assume the corals or rock coming in may have red bugs, flat worms, montipora eating nudis and so on. They don't do it because of the greenbacks it takes to do it. This is not a slam at any of our sponsors or local LFS. Unfortunatley it is the industry norm,and will be until consumers don't support/stand for it any more. If stores offered a stay live guarantee, they would treat their livestock better (for example fresh water fish have a stay alive warranty for a period of time). LFS will offer that on freshwater due to the fish not costing as much. If they warrantied saltwater fish they would do alot more to ensure the fish survive once they leave their tanks. They probably would not sell fish until it has been treated with medication and proper salinty for a few days. People could purchase that fish still, but would have to wait until it completed its initial treatment.
Therefore, we DON'T RUN THEM HYPOSALINE. My point was that medication is MORE effective and if we were to run them hyposaline then more fish would die due to improper acclimation. When we tried it years ago at our old store with the best of intentions, we learned it was a big mistake. Seriously??? Have you been in our store??? Do you even know us? The whole "Money is the answer" quote is truly insulting. We don't do anything we know that might harm fish. We run our tanks with expensive medication so YOU don't have to. They are dipped and then go into medicated tanks. We try not to sell things to people on the day that they arrive to give the fish 1. time to rest and 2. allow them to have more time in medicated water so YOU don't have to spend money on medicine. WE DO. Test it. I truly hope you are not referring to NorthSide here. If a fish is sick and we have any clue that it might be sick, it will NOT leave our store. We have had people scream and leave because we would not sell them a fish we suspected of being sick. Let me give you a for example... "But I just drove 2 and a half hours to buy THAT FISH." We tell them no, absolutely not, no way, no how. Period, end of discussion. Quite frankly, we piss off a lot of people, and we don't make money doing it. Those people run straight for the next nearest store that sells that fish. People who care will appreciate our honesty and will generally wait until we say that fish is ready to go or until we get a healthy one in for them. While we don't use Maracyn, we do use Seachem products and we buy them in bulk. If you don't believe me, ask to see our bulk medications that we use for our fish. We will happily show them to you. They are NOT cheap, even in bulk. True. That is why we don't do it. When practical, we take preventative measures to help ensure that our livestock and live rock go home with hobbyists in a healthy state. We do dip our corals. While I am not familiar with this particular product (Coral-X), here are the problems with trying to treat for critters in live rock: you will indiscriminately kill all invertebrate life if you use something to kill things like Mantis shrimp. That kind of defeats the whole purpose of the rock being live. Live rock is so full of holes, that critters can burrow deeper than medication can penetrate even over a period of several days. If you want to be sure, then buy DRY rock. We sell that also. Really, you are NOT slamming us? Did you read what you just posted? We are all about money, you say. We don't participate on this forum very much for EXACTLY this reason. We opted to post the information about how we care for our fish because there seemed to be some uncertainty about what practices that took place at our store. We want people to be aware of what we are doing so that they can better care for the critters when they go home. For doing so, we got slammed. We spend tons of money every year on medication for the water, medication for food, expensive food, and UV sterilization just to make sure that you get the best quality, healthiest animals that you can. Clearly, these are signs of a store that is only out for profit and turning fish as fast as possible. This is a TWO-WAY street. If we were to offer an unconditional "stay alive" guarantee, then there would be no responsibility placed on the part of the hobbyist. While YOU may be responsible, remember that YOU are not everyone that we have come through our doors. There are a lot of uneducated, uncaring people who want to buy fish. If they obviously don't care, we don't sell them fish. Period. Here is news for you. No matter how hard we work to educate people about proper acclimation, the Nitrogen Cycle, and so on, it is COMMONPLACE for people who don't know us well yet to come in with a dead fish in a bag, wanting us to replace it. When we ask about the circumstances of how the fish was acclimated, they tell us they floated it and then dumped it in. That was after 10 minutes of instruction on acclimation and sending home a bright yellow acclimation sheet. Really? You think we should eat that loss and refund that customer's money? We do our part, and it is up to the hobbyist to do his/her part. We require water tests and we ask people to be honest about what is in their tanks. We consider instances of fish death on a case-by-case basis. We have a relationship with our customers. We keep up with what is going on in their aquariums and WE CARE.
My comments were not necessarily directed to NSA or any of our other sponsors. I have bought a majestic angel in the past only to find out when acclimating it that the salinity was 1.013. My tank was at 1.023. We acclimated the fish for several hours and he ended up dying. I never said you use hypo-salinity on your tanks. I have also never seen you sell a sick fish. I never stated that. Our local stores do not use any medications other than copper. I never said you did not. I just voiced my opinion around it. While your store may be above the majority of others, there are several out there who do just as I noted. The bottom line for anyone business owner is money as it should be. Some stores (not necessarily yours) do cut corners to save money. I also agree that some people are not no where educated enough around the hobby as they should be, and some stores will take advantage of that. Not necessarily your store. In the last month I have heard of a store selling several fish and anemone to a person who had just set their tank up with base rock at that. Well this person lost most of the livestock except what was transferred to a friends established tank. Once again not your store. I did not write what I wrote to slam you or any other stores. It was just my opinion on what was commented on previously.
I hope you stay on top of your store better then you're discussions here. 1 year later you answer Geeeeezzz
