Yeah, I can't believe I could have been so stupid. I'm really pretty embaressed I did this, but maybe others can learn from my mistakes, and some of you old pros can give me some advice. Last weekend I connected a 26 gallon refugium to my main 120 gallon DT. Temp and salinity were a perfect match and the refugium had been running for several weeks. No ammonia, nitrites, etc. The refugium had been filled with water made from a new bucket of Tropic Marin Pro Reef. Like an idiot, I didn't test the water made from the new bucket of salt. To make matters worse, I didn't test the refugium pH before I connected it to the DT. A double screwup. After connecting the refugium, the pH of the tank has fallen and is now hovering around 7.7 this evening. At first I was baffled by this and started recalibrating my meters, etc. I was planning on doing a water change tomorrow, so just on a whim I checked the pH of my new water that has been aerating with a heater for the past few days. Guess what? 7.8! Crap. What should I do about this? I'm going to try to mix the salt up real good in case it settled in shipping and see if I get different results. Update: I just mixed up a new test batch of about 2 gallons.....pH 8.3! I guess aerating the mix is causing the pH to drop...maybe high CO2 levels in my house? Now I'm confused as to what I should do. Over the last few months the pH has been rock steady. Why the sudden change? I'm running the AC a bit more now, but that's a big change.
I have never aerated my new salt water, heater yes but thats about it. I think that if you are using RO/DI you wouldn't need to aerate the water Just mix the water up 24 hours before your water change thats all I do and I change about 35 gallons in a 240. It does sound like the salt may have settled during shipping is that the same brand salt you have been using the whole time or did you switch brands when you started the refugium.
It's the same brand of salt, just a new bucket. I even did some reading on low pH from the links in chemistry forums. I took a sample of the tank water and aerated it OUTSIDE of my house, just to check if maybe it was high CO2 levels causing this. Wierd thing is that it cause the pH of the sample to drop even farther! Really strange. I guess I'll stop aerating it then. Bad thing is, I have about 15 gallons of fresh saltwater that I'm afraid to use. I'm gonna mix up some fresh without aerating it this time.
You could try to adjust it with a buffer of some type. I know that soda ash will raise the PH very fast but I don't know if it would hold it at the PH that you need you could also try to raise the PH with kalkwasser. It has a PH of 12 so a little bit added to the water you have mixxed up might buffer it enough to be able to use with no ill effects. If you have one of these I would be interested to know the out come of the tests.
I'll try adding kalkwasser and see if that will buffer it. To make matters worse, I think the pH drop has been stressful on the fish. I now have ich showing up on the blue tang. I'm setting up a hospital tank/tub, but he's not looking good. Breathing very rapid. I am crushed. My wife is near tears - she loves that fish. I'm going to the store to get some copper meds. The sad thing is I believe there were signs of this several weeks ago. I thought I saw some white spots, then when I looked again they were not there. I screwed up again and didn't recognize that as what the marine ich life cycle does. Here are the parameters: pH - 7.7 dKh - 9.8 Calcium - 420 temp - 79F Ammonia - 0 Nitrites - 0 Nitrates - 0.2 None of the corals or other fish are looking bad...yet. Now that I know there is ich present, I have no choice but to remove all the fish from the tank and let it go fishless until the ich dies from lack of a host, which, from what I have read, is at least 8 weeks. Not sure how I am going to treat and hold 8-9 fish (about 25 inches worth) for 8 weeks. I'll have to disassemble most of the reef to catch them, I'm sure. I'm thinking of using a large 50 gallon tub for the hospital/treatment tank and setup a larger tank for a future QT and to house them after the treatment period. I have sponge filter running in my sump of the DT, but it's not been in there very long. How long does it take to become active? The treatment period for the fish will last at least a month, including time to verify it is parasite free, so that may give me time to get a cycle going in a QT tank using ammonia and food to start the cycle. Does this sound like a sound plan? Quarentine, quarentine, quarentine. I kept putting off buying a quarentine tank. Another hard lesson learned. The tang need help NOW, so I'm going to go ahead and setup a tub for him alone. I gotta get busy.
Really sorry to hear... about ick These post are the best I have read on the subject... hope something in these post help. http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums/fis ... e-ich.html http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums/fis ... facts.html http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums/fis ... -away.html http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums/fis ... -step.html http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums/fis ... eebca.html
Did your tank inhabitants show any signs off stress? If not I would not worry too much. You can mix the good bucket with the bad bucket 50-50 and it will more than likely be all right also. I never aerate my water, and I would not think you would need a heater this time of year. I mix 40 gallons of salt up at a time in a Rubbermaid garbage can. I use a mag 9 and another power head to circulate and mix the salt and water together. If you are really concerned by some Seachem buffer or what ever brand you can find. Also if your new bucket test good and the old one does not, maybe its missing more than just buffer? The best way to tell is by looking at your tank pets.
Sorry I missed your post about the tang. Before removing all fish try sprinkling some ginger out of the kitchen spice section on your dried seaweed with some garlic on it. Its a great remedy for tangs with ich. I will look for the link. I know this sounds like snake oil but I have seen it work!.... Get some fresh ginger root fom the grocery store and ground it up in some water in a blender and soak the nori and other food in it before giving it to the Tang. There is a good chance that the parsites will fall off. Obviously, these parasites have always been in the tank because you haven't added anything, however, your PBT was strong enough to fight them off until the tank was stressed by the anemone spawning. You have to get him back to that point again and this may help.. Keep him eating!" Good Luck! I just use the spice ginger in the cooking section myself. I have had great results. Alot of club members have seen my powder blue and other tangs, and they are vey healthy using this diet.
Thanks for the responses everyone. I'm planning on following a lot of the advice in the links nanoreefing posted. Unfortunately, the tang expired before I could even get the QT setup. I'm pretty depressed right now. The other fish look OK right now, but the female clownfish didn't eat very agressively tonight, and that concerns me. The tank pH is right at 7.8 in the evening, but drops lower overnight. The corals all look fine so far. On the salt issue...I can't figure out why the pH of my water drops so much when I aerate it. It just doesn't make sense. I aerated a sample outside to see if it was a high level of CO2 in my household air causeing a problem, but the pH of the sample dropped even farther with more vigorous aeration outside. Interestingly enough, there was some white percipitate in the bottom of my saltwater mixing reservoir. I just dumped that batch and made a new batch without aerating it. The pH is at 8.2. Not sure what is going on here, but I never had this problem with the previous bucket of salt...my tank pH was solid between 8-8.2 for the past two months. I'll do a water change tomorrow evening with the new batch if it still checks out OK. I'll be looking for a real QT tank this week as well, so if anyone has a 55 gallon tank and cheapo stand they need to unload, let me know. I'd like to get it setup and treat all the remaining fish with the hyposalinity method, and leave the tank fishless for a few months.
I am sure no chemist... I have lots to learn there... I usually try to follow Randy Holmes Farley's advise... but if it helps... related to PH imo (in my opinion) Ph does not have to be 8.2 a Ph of 7.8 is fine & a Ph of 8.4 is fine
Reefer sorry I was gone racing in Ok. for 3 days. Some good advice mentioned already. First off hooking up your 27 refug to the 120 with what you think was a different PH wouldn't be enough volume to change the 120 that much. I would venture to guess that both systems were sitting in the same area of the house, so the PH should have been about the same. As mentioned a PH of 7.7 isn't that bad, 7.6 to 8.5 is okay, you just need to try to keep it from fluctuating wildly. It well go down at night a little which is normal. Do you reverse light your sump and refug in reference to the DT?, that well help keep the PH up. Your alk is at 9.8 which is good but I would not want it much higher. If you use kalk or buffer you need to remember that they well both change the alk levels and the kalk well change the calc. levels also, so be carefull, I would not do any other dosing except for calc. if using buffer instead of kalk. Also to raise PH you need to either use the buffer for PH, but it well still effect alk. or use washing soda or baked baking soda, NOT unbaked baking soda, you can find the process in the chem forum sticky by RHF., as the unbaked well raise the alk more then the other. You can also leave your lighting cycle on longer until ph rises. I doubt that the low PH was the main contributer to the blue tangs ich problems, PH is more of a concern to corals that need to build skeletons then to the fish as long as it isn't a sudden change and doesn't get too low. Blue tangs, and for that matter mmany tangs are ich magnets and any number of other things can cause one of more to be stressed, and not only water parims that you can measure, which yours look fine other then the PH is a little low. It can be other tank mates or other water conditions that we can't measure and the latter is one reason to wait until a tank has aged for atleast a year to add some of the more finicky fish. There is alot more to a system then just the parims we can measure, do some add these fish earlier and have no problems, you bet, but it is not advised by most, and a blue tang is a ich magnet. I WOULD NOT take all the fish out and tear the tank down to rid it of ich. First off healthy fish that are not being stressed well live with ich present just fine, 98 % of all the tanks have it. I have debated this with some others on other sites that believe you need to have a ich free tank, most are fairly new to reef keeping and are more toward being in the scientific community. I have had tanks off and on since the late 70's and have never had an ich free tank. I know Ralphs and Normans and Sams aren't either, nor is the majority in the world. Remeber to have an ich free system you well have to QT EVERY single item you ever add to the DT, that icludes all LR, corals and coppering all fish because you can't tell if they have ich or not by just watching them forever, as it can be in their gills or so small you can't see it. If you stick your arm in a QT tank you well have to wash it first and hope a cyst isn't on it somewhere, remember all it takes is one and you get to do it all over again. yippy!!! I have always looked at it this way, Ich is in the ocean and the fish live with it and if a fish is stressed for whatever reason, they die in the wild from it also. Some people say well it is not a closed system like our tanks, so they can rid themselves of it, BUT the cyst on the fish are not dropping and breeding at the same time, so if the fish is stressed for whatever reason they well continue to be infected even in the wild. The way I have always used it is as the old saying of a CANARY IN A COAL MINE, It is a warning something is not right in the tank, either chem wise or inhabinet wise. A closed system does make it easier to affect others. Why your PH is dropping when aerorating is strange, but I also use TMP salt and the parims are pretty much at normal seawater levels and that includes the alk which is usally around 7.8 to 8.0 and if you add aeration and there is any CO2 around you well probably cause it to intake CO2 and lower the PH, as an alk level much below 12 dkh well actually injest CO2 if it is present and the water isnot lighted, why it is doing it outside is beyond my knowledge. I would do as suggested above and just add a P/H to the bucket and let it swirl for 12 to 24 hrs as TMP mixes fast, I have actually used it in 2 hrs of mixing in a pinch, I would not do that with some other salts though. The only thing I can think of is that maybe you are aerorating for days and it is picking up CO2 and the buffer is depleting, I don't know the answer for sure. Try aerating for 12 to 24 hrs and to be honest I never have checked my fresh mixed for PH levels as I knew it would effect the tank levels and as stated I don't think that was your problem either. I would let the tank settle down and don't do anything as far as the ich is concerned, I would mix up some new water and just use a P/H to mix it along with the heater and make sure you are using the correct amount of salt as if it is too weak you well get a low ph reading. Since you are using TMP, the same as I, I use 2 1/2 cups to 5 gals of RO/DI water, which gave me a salinity of 1.025 and every other bucket 2 5/8 cups, which if I remeber right is about 1.036 salinity to help keep the salinity at 1.025, as I skim pretty wet and that well lower the salinity in the DT somewhat over time. On my 240 I changed 5 gals 2 times a week so on your 120 I would split that in two. Try to do little water changes more often as big water changes can change things too much and cause stress is my belief, unless something bad has happened to require it. RHF changes 1 gal. a day on his system. As I mentioned above your PH most likely had nothing to do with the BT problems as I would have bet that both systems were pretty close in PH levels if they were both in the same area of the house and the PH has more to do with the calcification process of coral skeleton building then anything else. Keep us posted
Reefor Also As you know I think anyone who doesn't QT is not doing the animals justice and is a disaster waiting to happen. As you probably have heard by now I had to take our property back up north and have to move back and I have a 30 gal that I have been using as a QT, which if you want I well sell to you cheap. I can always find another used one easy in the Seattle area. I won't sell the korilla or the aqua clear filter but you can have the tank. I would not use a 55 unless I had a really big tank and was ging to have big fish. It cost to much for meds and is not needed. If you keep up with the DT husbundry as you seem very concerned about doing you shouldn't ever have to get everything out, it well usally be one guy who for wahtever reason is having a problem. Any new additions need it for observation of course. Anyway give me a call if you want the 30. 501-278-5087
Oh, I agree. I don't think it has to be 8.2 either, and I'm trying not to get hung up on a "magic number", but I'm confused about why it changed so much so quickly (8.2 is a long way from 7.8, IMO), and I'm a little concerned that it is dropping at night down to the 7.5-7.6 range. The salt is what I was suspecting. Thinking back to a month or so ago when I mixed up the first batch of the new salt, I ended up dumping that batch. It immediately precipitated a white substance and the water never cleared up, even after 3-4 days. There where tons of white "floaties". I mixed up a second batch after that and mixed it more slowly, and it didn't form a precipitate, at least not immediately. Last night I took the salt bag out of the bucket and rolled it around to mix it up, just in case, then made another new batch of saltwater. It came out at 8.2, with me mixing by hand, no aeration. It could be a settling issue, but I'm not fully convinced of that yet. Fisherman, thanks for the advice. After thinking about it more, I believe you are right about the pH being unrelated to the refugium addition. Thinking back to my old chemistry schooling, even if the two pH's were quite a bit different (say 7.5 and 8.2), 25 gallons at 7.5 wouldn't affect 120 @ 8.2 by much at all. It was probably coencidence that pH dropped within a few days of adding the refugium. Interesting comment about pH dropping due to calcification process, as I have notice more coraline algea growth and my branching monti's and cup coral have had a little growth spurt recently. I think I'll take your advice and just try to keep things consistent without "monkeying" with anything. Sometimes that is the hardest thing to do. Concerning the salt mixing, I find I also use about 2&1/2 cups per five gallons, to reach 1.025 with TMP. I mixed up a new batch last night and tested the pH = 8.2. I put a P/H in it this morning and will check it when I get home. As far as the quarentine tank, I think I'll just pick one up locally, as it would cost me an additional $40-50 in gas to pick the tank up from you there in Conway/Central Ark area, but I appreciate the offer. I should be able to find a 29 gallon or so around here pretty cheap. You make some good counterpoints to what I've been reading about ich lately. The likelyhood of it getting back into your tank could be high, considering that every LFS in the world has it, and it only takes a momentary lapse. What are the odds people who have erradicated it from their tanks using the "fishless" method don't re-introduce it at some point down the road, and just don't know it because their tanks are aged and not stressing the fish?
I would bet that the PH in both tanks were about the same. I don't know if you have ever read anything on mixing salt but the right way of doing it is to put the water in the bucket or mixing vessel and then add the salt, NEVER the other way. When you add the salt, you want to have the P/H in the bucket working, then take the salt in the measuring cup and just shake it in slowly, my first 2 cups usally takes about a minute, then do the 1/2 cup. IF you pour it in too fast it well percipitate out and if you add the water afterwards it well most of the time. Water first, then salt slowly with the water being stirred. Your PH should be fine in time if your house is not to air tight. The newer houses have more trouble then the older ones with CO2 and crack a window by the tank if you suspect CO2 issues. If you have kids and alot of animals in the house you could have. As for ich, with you parims I'll bet the ich clears up on the others, blue tangs are real prone to it. Even when you get a QT setup and the newbie has been in for a few weeks and things look good to go, if he is stressed for any reason when you add him to the DT, he well probably break out, letting you know there is a problem. Say like adding a BT or a Pwdr brn or Pwdr blue and you have a established purple tang in the tank, you are going to have troubes unless the newbie is alot bigger, so then you need to trap the purple out of the DT and add the newbie and put the purple in the QT for 4 or 5 days until the newbie gets established and coming out regularly and the purple loses his territorial thoughts. The 2 are just examples of what you have to do sometimes when adding certain fish after others have established their territory. There are some fish that do not take to copper well and well probably die from it, most butterflies for one, so the only way of killing the cyst is hypo and there are numerous opinions on the levels and even if it works all the time. Also you have to have not a $50 refractometer but a good one and make sure of the salinity as the margin to kill the cyst verses killing the fish is very fine. So as I siad above there are 98 % of the aquariums operating just fine for years with it. Even if you do rid the tank of it, one slip and you start all over again by removing anything that can be a host. Besides if a fish is under stress that bad he well in time most likely get a bacterial infection and they are alot harder to diagnose and treat. As for the tank I live in Searcy which is even worse probably and understand. Walmart probably has a 29 and you can get a hang on filter at most all fish stores, I like aqua clear because you can buy bulk filter floss and use it verses name brand at much higher prices. PS also put the salt in before heating as the hotter the water the easier it is for the calc. to percipitate out of solution and if doing small changes, as Ralph said probably don't even need to heat, the only time you need to heat is on a new bucket of even the same brand to check the parims of ph., salinity, calc. and alk. mixed to 1.025 and stirred for atleast 12 hrs. You have chosen some of the best salt in my opinion there is, I have never in 20 plus yrs had a batch be different then the previous, nor have any wierd residues in the bucket.
That's how I generally do it. I was previously using a large airstone at the bottom of the container to circulate the water a bit as I slowly shook the salt from the measuring cup into the RO water while stiring it in manually. Now that you mention it, that first batch I had precipitate out I was in a hurry and probably added the salt a little too fast...normally I do go slower. I make about 10-12 gallons at a time, so I "shake in" about 2&1/2 to 3 cups as I stir, then wait until the water is clear before I add the other 2&1/2 to 3 cups, usually 2-3 minutes just to give it time, like you said TMP disolves really quick. I'm going to just use a P/H from now on, like you suggest, and remember to go slow on the salt addition. It's been 10 years since I had a reef and all the little things are just starting to come back to me, although I don't remember making the mistake of adding the salt too fast before, lol.
Yeh it doesn't happen everytime, but that is what usually causes precip. I just added a ps as you were typing. Sounds like you have it under control.
Well, John gets the prize for hitting it on the head. He mentioned calcification causing pH to drop...he was right, my kalk mixer was depleted. I had actually thought about that the other night...I added some to the mixer the night before last, just in case...it normally hasn't needed to be replenished this quickly. I have added a few new corals over the last few weeks, coupled with a growth spurt from some of my SPS and coraline algea, and there you have it. I can't believe I didn't think of this sooner! Doh! The pH is already climbing back up to around 8.1. I think the salt is probably fine. I was aerateing the mix, and since I make up my water several days in advance, it was being aerated fairly heavily for several days, possibly depleating the buffering capacity and causing the pH to drop.
Thanks to you of course! It is so great to be able to get input from people so experienced as you. I really appreciate it. BTW, Everybody is looking great right now, no signs of heavy breathing or white spots on any of the others...everyone ate vigorously tonight, and they are active as can be. I'm still tore up over the tang. He was eating from my fingertips last week..then..he's gone in a day and a half almost. I'll wait untill the tank is a year or so old here before I try to add a "delicate" fish of some sort. I've got some corals in mind I'd like to place, but other than that, I just want to watch what I have grow. BTW, I did not know you were leaving! I hope you can drop in from time to time. If you ever need anything from NW Arkansas, let me know!
